On Wednesday’s broadcast of Fox News Channel’s “Hannity,” Sean Hannity hosted a debate between “Draw Mohammed” organizer Pamela Geller and London Imam Anjem Choudray over the events that unfolded in Garland, TX last weekend.
The debate deteriorated when Choudray insisted Geller’s involvement with the event that he argued “insulted Mohammed” warranted the death penalty as punishment.
Partial transcript as follows:
SEAN HANNITY: And welcome to “Hannity.” Radical jihadists tonight are calling for the head of Texas free speech event organizer Pamela Geller. A chilling on-line post reportedly written by an American jihadist warns that Geller cannot hide and that she will be killed for daring to hold a cartoon contest.
Now, the post also claims that ISIS has trained over 70 fighters in 15 states right here in America who are ready to react. And anyway, joining us now to respond to these new threats against her life, Pam Geller. Also with us, radical London imam — and that’s Anjem Choudary is back with us.
Pam, before I get to your side of the story, I want to remind people about Anjem. He’s been on the program before.
You want worldwide sharia, is that correct?
ANJEM CHOUDARY, LONDON IMAM: Of course. Yes. We believe that the whole world should be governed by divine law.
HANNITY: And you support the idea that women can’t drive, correct?
CHOUDARY: That’s a Saudi rule. Although women can drive, it’s up to the head of the Islamic State (ph) to decide…
HANNITY: And — and you believe that…
CHOUDARY: … how the rules of segregation should be applied.
HANNITY: … Muslims that leave their religion, apostates, should be killed.
CHOUDARY: Well, of course. The Prophet said whoever changes (ph), then kill him. So this is the (INAUDIBLE)
HANNITY: All right, and gays and lesbians should be killed. I’m just reminding my audience of your — and gays a lesbians, the penalty for that is death, correct?
CHOUDARY: You know, if they do that publicly and there are witnesses, it does carry capital punishment, yes, sir.
HANNITY: OK. Now, let me go to you, Pam. This is a serious threat. Basically, a fatwa, a death threat, has now been issued. Your reaction to that? Have you had any contact with the FBI?
PAMELA GELLER, PAMELAGELLER.COM: They have not contacted me, but of course, we’ve now increased my team. I have a team now, private security. And NYPD counterterror has been in touch with me.
HANNITY: In touch with you.
GELLER: And so — yes, we’ll all be…
HANNITY: Did you reach out to the FBI?
GELLER: I did.
HANNITY: And they — Homeland Security hasn’t gotten ahold of you? The FBI hasn’t gotten ahold of you?
GELLER: No. And this is interesting because this is a terrorist threat. And the FBI, President Obama should provide security. There’s just no question about it because he created an environment that raised the stakes on this.
If you recall, I had a free speech contest on September 11 of 2012. I had Lars Vilks, a cartoonist there. It was for freedom of speech. And the fact is, nobody tried to — nobody — nobody tried to attack it. Nobody reported on it. But that same day, the Cairo embassy was attacked. Benghazi was attacked. They flew the flag of jihad on top of the Cairo embassy and our U.S. embassy apologized!
HANNITY: Let me…
GELLER: They apologized for…
HANNITY: Let me go to Mr. Choudary. All right, all these incidents over a cartoon, Anjem — all these incidents over a cartoon — do you support this death threat against Pam Geller because she ran a free speech contest drawing cartoons of your prophet?
CHOUDARY: Let’s be absolutely clear. We’re not talking about Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. You’re talking about people who deliberately had a competition to insult the messenger…
HANNITY: To make cartoons.
CHOUDARY: If you saw the cartoons — just bear with me, Sean. If you saw the cartoons that Charlie Hebdo drew, you would understand the anger. Now this woman wants to draw cartoons or have people draw cartoons to insult the Prophet, knowing full well that this carries the death penalty in Islam. So definitely…
HANNITY: You support the death penalty for Pam Geller…
CHOUDARY: … security on the day (ph).
HANNITY: … who doesn’t — who’s not — is not Muslim. You support the death penalty because she had a cartoon contest. Is that how — is that how frail you are in your faith that you feel so insecure that you cannot…
CHOUDARY: You know, it’s not about it.
HANNITY: … your prophet…
CHOUDARY: It’s not about it, it’s about the divine law.
HANNITY: Your prophet cannot withstand…
CHOUDARY: Whoever insults the messenger…
HANNITY: … a cartoon being drawn about him?
CHOUDARY: That will carry capital punishment, Sean.
HANNITY: You support the death threat. You want to kill her!
HANNITY: You want her to die!
CHOUDARY: You know what? She should be put before a Sharia court and tried and…
HANNITY: She’s not a Muslim!
CHOUDARY: … of course, she will face capital punishment.
HANNITY: She’s not a Muslim, Anjem. She’s not a Muslim! She doesn’t believe what you believe.
CHOUDARY: She should have thought of that before…
HANNITY: … liberty and freedom and freedom of speech!
HANNITY: You want to oppress her over a cartoon!
CHOUDARY: … and Salman Rushdie and Hirsi Ali. You cannot continue to go down this road and expect the Muslims to stand back. You know, I would retaliate if somebody insulted my own mother, let alone the Prophet, who I adhere, and you know, I love a hundred times more than my own family.
HANNITY: So if anybody says anything…
CHOUDARY: … if someone attacked his mother. What about the Prophet?
HANNITY: If somebody says something about your prophet that you don’t like, you want them dead!
CHOUDARY: Any prophet.
HANNITY: Your prophet.
CHOUDARY: (INAUDIBLE) that about Jesus or Moses or Abraham or…
HANNITY: I didn’t anybody…
HANNITY: Wait a minute!
HANNITY: … a crucifix submerged in urine, and I didn’t hear you or any other Muslim say that this person ought to get the death penalty, Andres Serrano. There was an elephant dung thrown on a picture of the Virgin Mary.
CHOUDARY: You know, Sean…
HANNITY: I didn’t hear you or any other Muslim…
CHOUDARY: Let me tell you something…
HANNITY: … condemn that or threaten death there!
CHOUDARY: In this country, they depicted (INAUDIBLE) Jesus as a homosexual. That was Corpus Christie…
HANNITY: And you support the death of them, too.
CHOUDARY: … and we had a demonstration. And Christians were coming to us and saying, you know, We should have been out there.
HANNITY: All right…
CHOUDARY: So we always raise our voice, no matter which prophet of Allah, you know, has been attacked. And what I would say to you…
GELLER: Here’s the key difference…
CHOUDARY: … instead of insulting the prophets, why don’t you follow them? Why don’t you abide by what they say?
HANNITY: Because they don’t agree with you!
HANNITY: We don’t live under your oppressive sharia law!
GELLER: Here’s the key…
CHOUDARY: You will do one day, Sean…
HANNITY: God forbid!
GELLER: Here’s the key and critical difference. Canon law pertains to Catholics. Jewish law pertains only to Jews. But the sharia, which is a — dictates every basic aspect of human life, asserts its authority…
GELLER: … over non-Muslims…
HANNITY: Let her finish. Anjem…
HANNITY: Anjem, let — one at a time.
GELLER: The sharia asserts…
GELLER: The sharia asserts its authority over non-Muslims, unlike Jewish law and unlike canon law, which is why the — under the sharia, they’re slaughtering Christians, they’re slaughtering secular Muslims across Africa and across the Muslim world.
That fact is, in that fatwa that was issued against me — my name is preceded by “conzeir (ph).” Now, conzeir means pig. It’s the word Mohammed used before he slaughtered how many — I should — beheaded hundreds of Jews. So to first say to the liberal media that this is not religious is absurd and obscene on its face!
To blame me and say that my cartoons are controversial — excuse me, murdering cartoons — murdering cartoonists is controversial. And it is the jihadis that made this last point, not me. And does anyone really think that these jihadis would have just been peaceful, loving Americans?
CHOUDARY: OK, can I come back…
GELLER: Of course they wouldn’t! I submit to you that…
CHOUDARY: First of all — first of all…
GELLER: No, I’m talking, sir. I know you’re used to stepping over women, but you’re not going to have it here, OK? My conference saved lives because I understand the threat and we had enormous protection, and the Garland police were superb.
But those jihadists drove a thousand miles for this conference. Would they have hit a mall? Would they have hit a coffee shop like in Australia?
HANNITY: Or kids.
GELLER: Or — that conference saved lives, and shame on the cowardly media!
HANNITY: All right, let’s go back to the imam. Go ahead.
CHOUDARY: Pamela, first of all, the word “conzier” I think is too good for you in the first place, you know? A least a conzier worships Allah. The fact is that you insulted the Prophet Mohammed (INAUDIBLE) and obviously, you knew the consequences. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have…
GELLER: What do you mean I knew the consequences? I live in America!
GELLER: I live in America!
CHOUDARY: You talk about murdering innocent people…
GELLER: There are no consequences!
CHOUDARY: The United States of America are the champions of murdering innocent people!
GELLER: The champions of freedom, sir!
GELLER: You can’t take it. Look how you want to kill people.
HANNITY: All right…
HANNITY: Excuse me!
CHOUDARY: … Americans are occupying Muslim lands!
HANNITY: Mr. Choudary — Choudary —
CHOUDARY: They are the ones who killed up to a million people…
CHOUDARY: … in Iraq and Afghanistan…
HANNITY: One at a time. Anjem…
CHOUDARY: … Americans and others insult…
HANNITY: Let me ask you a question. We have watched — in the name of your religion, your so-called prophet, we have seen people’s heads cut off. We have seen girls kidnapped. We have seen girls raped. We have seen girls thrown into slavery and impregnated by radicals in the name of your religion!
Is this the prophet that you praise so much? Is that — is that Islam to you?
CHOUDARY: You know, Sean…
HANNITY: Excuse me!
HANNITY: Answer that question! Is that Islam to you? Is that Islam to you?
HANNITY: Excuse me! I have…
CHOUDARY: Nobody is being raped!
HANNITY: I have the images…
CHOUDARY: No women are being killed…
HANNITY: … of Coptic Christians on a beach…
HANNITY: … beheaded in the name of Allah!
CHOUDARY: (INAUDIBLE) You’re the one who believe in pornography! You’re the one who put the naked women…
HANNITY: So if you disagree with pornography, you’re going to cut somebody’s head off?
CHOUDARY: I’m sorry, Sean, you’ve living in a cloud cuckoo-land. (INAUDIBLE) FOX News…
HANNITY: I’m living in cuckoo-land?
HANNITY: And you rape young girls and kidnap young girls in the name of Boko Haram and…
CHOUDARY: No women are being raped! The only women being raped…
HANNITY: Excuse me! Those girls got…
HANNITY: Nigeria — excuse me! They’re pregnant! And they were raped after they were kidnapped and taken away from…
HANNITY: … terror all over the world in the name of Islam, in the name of your prophet!
CHOUDARY: … -the Nigerian regime by Badluck (sic), you know, Jonathan, and his own successor, not by the Muslims.
HANNITY: You’re pathetic!
CHOUDARY: We are the ones who are defending ourselves…
HANNITY: You’re just pathetic.
CHOUDARY: … Sean. Wake up.
HANNITY: You’re just pathetic.
CHOUDARY: We defend ourselves in Syria and Iraq and Chechnya…
HANNITY: You’re evil and pathetic.
CHOUDARY: … in India, in Kashmir.
HANNITY: All right, we got to go.
CHOUDARY: We are defending ourselves. Sean, wake up!
HANNITY: Thank you. Pam, we’ll give you the last word.
HANNITY: Hang on.
CHOUDARY: … woman on your show…
HANNITY: We’ll give you…
CHOUDARY: … to talks…
HANNITY: Excuse me. You have to be quiet. There’s another person here.
GELLER: Roman Catholics don’t like when their religion is mocked, but no one talks about provoking them. Christians don’t like it. Jews don’t like it. But this is what it takes to live in a pluralistic society. You have the right to offend and be offended.
HANNITY: You know, every time I put Anjem on — let me tell you something. People will complain that we put him on. This is the problem. He believes this.
GELLER: A lot of people do.
HANNITY: And a lot of people believe this! And there’s a lot of terror in the name of Islam, in the name of the prophet that is happening. And you know what? People ought not get killed over a cartoon! And that’s what’s happening.
GELLER: But why don’t we expect that from the Muslim world? We all understand that there’s a right to offend. You know, they don’t like — the Christ on the cross and a jar of urine or the elephant dung. We didn’t like it. We didn’t kill anybody. There are Holocaust denial cartoon conferences. The Jews didn’t kill anybody. What is this — the low expectation of soft bigotry! Why don’t we expect that from the Muslim world?
HANNITY: In that sense, it’s almost condescending that we would expect less.
GELLER: That’s exactly right.
HANNITY: Well, said. All right, I got to break. Thank you. Appreciate it. And I hope you stay safe.
Follow Jeff Poor on Twitter @jeff_poor